When my strategy is not working, I find from past experience, it’s because I have not surrendered my life to the Lordship of Christ or I have taken it back. Actually when I do finally give up the fight…that’s when God’s power is made evident in me. So the change is for His Glory not mine.

Sue

The issue for Christians here is simple. If we are Christians in the true sense of the word, and if we have same sex attractions on a physical and emotional level what are we to do, how are we to live?

The Church allows for two options. Either a man or woman attempts to change, or we are encouraged to deny one of our most basic fundamental human drives or instincts, the need for intimacy, true and honest authentic connection on an emotional and physical level. These options, change or deny, present difficulties when “change” seems impossible and denial seems to be a monumental battle resulting in inner turmoil and conflict which is unique. Furthermore, this struggle is exacerbated by an unwillingness, a discomfort within the Church to actually minister to those in this battle in a way which brings successful resolution.

I have been willing to go down these paths, as have those whom I know personally and who contribute to this particular forum which John set up. But I think what is happening is that the “soldiers” in this battle are tired of fighting it and losing, always losing. And we are fatigued and tired of being dishonest about who we are. We aren’t giving up the fight, but we are looking at what’s wrong with our strategy and why it’s not working.

Tim

I said this to a degree a couple of times in past replies, but there is something that got my attention about the recent GCN Panel Discussion which you participated in.

It was Alan Manning Chamber’s call for a “longer conversation” going beyond apologies and conflict resolution, going beyond merely getting along and the “agree to disagree” stance.

Because I really think it should go beyond all of that. It might even afford us some honest debate.

I think what Dan Hoeksema is arguing for is a firmer stance. He’s made some excellent points. God’s redemption through Christ. Man’s fall isn’t the end of the story. Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ. Thank you, Dan. I’d love to hear more.

“Do two walk together unless they have agreed?” –Amos 3:3.

It’s easy to fall into the “bits and pieces of a shouting match” or the emergent “generous orthodoxy” leading to more confusion. Or that other crude position: just ignore the crisis and hope it will go away.

Above, writerjerome recommended the online search for Exodus and change–I don’t even have to search to know what Exodus has been talking about. I have a working knowledge of what’s been said through the years. In a word: sanctification. In a word: holiness. I think writerjerome had something else in mind.

Hearing the word “change” is causing some sort of short circuit outage in our brains. Or it’s falling on deaf ears.

But the search led to a YouTube segment of “N.T. Wright on Debate about Homosexuality 4″–highly recommended. He makes some interesting statements. And backs them up. We’ve lost our sense of the authority of Scripture. We’ve lost our sense of the authority of the Church. We’ve lost our way.

I was reminded, after hearing N.T. Wright, of what I said at least on one occasion: if only I were strong enough to have remained in the Episcopal church! And, on that one occasion, the friend I was speaking with, replied: if only the Episcopal church were strong enough for you!

That same friend went on to say: “Calls for further dialogue are often just a quieter form of coercion. What denomination that has undergone such dialogues or 3 years of listening before closing the issue on homosexuality and/or openly/active homosexual pastors/priests etc. has ever held fast to biblical standards of morality?”

He’s got a point. They always find a way to circumvent the givens of Scripture.

And it’s probably why Alan Manning Chamber’s idea of “longer conversation” got my attention. The longer conversation is more bracing. Resulting in real debate. Staying the course.

It seems to me that a lot of Christians are starting to wake up to the fact of the spirit of relativism in the Church. We’re called to test every spirit.

In Marin, I remember disbelief from some of my peers, and even you, John, over the fact that I was involved in this “dialogue”–I remember thinking, maybe reacting, wait ’til this crisis hits your church.

That is, the crisis of homosexuality hitting full force and more widely. And bringing with it a spirit of confusion. To scattered Christians suffering through a post-break-up of evangelicalism. To every denomination. Almost the perfect storm.

Except the gates of hell will not prevail.

Recently, I was talking with a friend about the false dichotomies of sexual identity labels as destructive. They hurt. They divide.

“Homosexual” is a modern medical term, as was noted above, by writerjerome. But so is “Heterosexual”–the original definitions of both words were categorically morbid. By definition, they’re two sides of the same coin.

What happened to the original sex terms: men and women?

Now we have more sexual identity labels. LGBTT2IQQ. Most people know or should know. Lesbian, Gay, Bi-Sexual, Trans-Gender, Trans-Sexual, Two-Spirit, Inter-Sex, Queer, Questioning. And the list is getting longer.

But how do you justify the labels? The next thing you hear is a rumble about who is gay and who isn’t and who is straight and who isn’t. The labels are divisive.

Cynthia Nixon of “Sex and the City” was attacked for her views. She gave a speech meant to empower gays with rational thoughts about choosing to be gay. But you can’t choose to be gay, her handlers said.

The school of thought called “gay essentialism” is the only rhetoric allowed–basically, you’re born that way, end of discussion–and everything else is hate speech and unaffirming. The idea of gayness as a construct or an adaptation is too controversial.

See David F. Greenberg’s book “The Construction of Homosexuality” before it’s banned. See also Robert A. J. Gagnon’s book “The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics.”

I like the above comment from Andrew Francis: “salvation and freedom will never be found in any ideology.” But the Church’s set of doctrines and beliefs is different.

It’s why St. Paul’s astonishing conversion while traveling on the road to Damascus–the Risen Christ appearing to him as a great and blinding light and speaking to him–his fall to the ground and the resulting blindness and later the healing and his fasting and baptism was only the beginning of the story.

What follows was St. Paul’s visit to Jerusalem to “confer” with the established Church. “Private revelation” isn’t enough for the Church–it isn’t the final word–and that’s something that we all agree on.

Dreams, visions, prophecies, experiences, everything must be tested by the Word of God. We can’t add to or take away from the givens of Scripture.

Where in the givens of Scripture–especially in its grand narrative beginning and ending with marriage–does God afford us same-sex sexual unions?

It’s the same question that Alan Medinger and many others put forth many times. The Episcopal church listened but didn’t hear. They turned from the historic faith.

It’s a gut feeling for many, I think, that we can’t walk in agreement.

Mike

The bible says, “with God ALL things are possible” I tend to believe and trust what God has said!! It is Real Truth!!

I think of Jesus’ example of the Good Samaritan as an example of who our neighbor truly is. Samaritan’s were certainly not orthodox, but the Gospel of Jesus calls us to receive blessing even from those who differ and to bless those who curse us.

Methinks it is time for Christian brothers and sisters to start being willing to bless and serve even those who would wish to rob us of all that we might hold sacred. Jesus preferred to die on a cross than to call down armies from heaven to evidence his humble love for a sinful and willfully antagonistic humanity. May the American church be known for its willingness to die and be spat on over and above its desire to protect itself and its ‘rights’ over and against those in the gay scene. Yes, salvation, freedom and truth are definitely at issue, but not in the way defined for too long by those unwilling to join Jesus in self-giving path of the cross.

Yes, I too am convinced that salvation and freedom will never be found in any ideology, be it gay or straight. Likewise I am convinced that salvation will never be found in Christian ideology. It is found in a person, Jesus, who alone is Truth and Salvation.

God Bless

Andrew

The concept we know today as “homosexuality” means a lifelong attraction to members of one’s own gender. A person can no more turn himself from gay to straight than he can turn himself from black to white. Google Exodus admits gays can’t change. See for yourself that the most sincerely dedicated person cannot pray away the gay or use willpower to make it change. Some can live celibate lives (www.gaychristian.net) but nobody has ever been turned by God from a homosexual to a heterosexual. Every medical assn concurs.

I know when satan tempts me with doing something wrong, and sinning against what I know is right, and since I have stumbled before, and have been restored through Gods’ Grace, and have experienced first-hand the redemptive love of Gods’ Forgiveness, I try “to go and sin no more”!! Glamorizing sin is not what God wants!! He wants us, and expects us to flee from it! Staying with-in its’ clutches plays right into what the evil one wants us to do!!

John, you need to start writing about how we can defeat satan and his attempts at corrupting us. Tell us how we need to begin committing to a daily Scriptural walk, developing a powerful prayer time that will restore us all and build us up! I’m sure your Board of Directors would approve of something as dramatic and encouraging as that!! I would love for you to start spending more time talking and writing about the present and the future instead of lingering in the past! Let’s make a difference in peoples lives, and get more people saved from the future of going into eternity without God, which is the path so many individuals are following now! God is Good, and He is Full Of Love and Grace for those who accept Him, and turn from the evil path they are following now!

John, I challenge you to make a difference, and start leading us in the way that you Know is right!! This life we lead here on Earth is very short, and it is preparing us for what comes next; and that is ETERNITY!!! The choice is ours to make; either With God, or without Him!!! and I can’t even imagine an eternity without God, in total darkness, forever and ever! That’s a Long, Long Time!!! Shalom!